Dare I jump into the middle of this verbal fray? Regardless of what one thinks about Dobson's views or homosexuality in general I am not convinced that Dobson opposes 'tolerance' of those who believe differently. It appears he has a strong moral conviction that a 'gay lifestyle' is wrong and therefore refuses to accept homosexuality, but he never advocated violence or verbal harassment towards the gay community or a denial of their human rights. For Instance:
"The stated purpose, as we have seen, is to teach children to respect each other and to accept those who are different. We are entirely supportive of that message." James Dobson
"Every individual is entitled to respect and human dignity, including those with whom we disagree strongly. The problem is not with acceptance or kindness, certainly." James Dobson http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0035339.cfm
His dissaproval wasnt with the video itself which he calls 'innocent' but with the curriculum that was supposedly sent along with it. Dobson claims to have proof of such and thus we have the We Are Family Co. saying one thing and him saying another. I cannot say for sure that 'We Are Family' is being dishonest but I also dont think that Dobson arbitraly made this fiasco up.
It would be odd to see how some would react if The Christian Coalition and The 700 Club put together a curriculum that teaches things about homosexuality and used 'Cookie Monster' and 'Big Bird' to market it to children. It is not clear that the 'We are Family' curriculum actually taught things regarding homosexuality but if it does I would agree that corporations have no business marketing their personal beliefs to school children regarding topics as sensitive as sexuality without parental consent.
"......if The Christian Coalition and The 700 Club put together a curriculum that teaches things about homosexuality and used 'Cookie Monster' and 'Big Bird' to market it to children."
That is a bit of a stretch. A friend calls them "Mandarins of Morality". Very apt. It seems that their prurient minds are always looking for dirt.
Mr. Dobson is a hate monger. The fact that he feels the need to explicitly say that he is not only points this out.
"Every individual is entitled to respect and human dignity, including those with whom we disagree strongly. The problem is not with acceptance or kindness, certainly."
If that we the case it would go without saying. Mr. Dobson however is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
"That raises the question: Have homosexuals faced this kind of uphill battle? Perhaps in the past, but there is no evidence of which I'm aware that they are disadvantaged now. The average homosexual earns $55,000 per year, compared with $32,000 for heterosexuals.215
Gays also have a much higher percentage of college degrees than the straight population.216 And when it comes to political clout, how can they claim to be shortchanged? Dozens of objectives of the gay and lesbian community are being achieved today.
Look at the issue of funding for AIDS research and treatment. I had a heart attack several years ago, and I am very concerned about support for research on coronary artery disease. After all, heart attacks and strokes kill more people than AIDS, cancer, TB, and several other diseases combined. But as you may know, the federal government spent 39 times as much on AIDS last year as it did on heart disease.217 Why? Because of the clout of homosexuals who turned their powerful guns on Congress and the White House.
My point is not to decry money being spent on the horrible AIDS epidemic. I'm simply making the point that the homosexual community is hardly an oppressed, powerless minority seeking protection under the law. You have Hollywood, the press, the media, the universities, the publishers, the professionals (in the American Bar Association, American Medical Association, etc.), and the judiciary enforcing your "politically correct" agenda.
Conservative Christians, by contrast, are stranded pretty much on their own. Given this undergirding, I hope you can see that our opposition to the gay and lesbian tidal wave is not an expression of hate but one of social justice and common sense."
A bit far fetched? The disco singer of 'We Are Family' is heading up a not for profit corporation that is the center of a national controversy for the supposed curriculum of their efforts to make school children more 'tolerant'. And as far as the quote is concerned the speaker should have read this last issue of time.
Apparantly, you just don't like Evangelical Christians who actually act on their faith. You made no substantive criticism against Dobson's Christian beliefs except that he's a "hate-monger". You've abandoned Christian values now? Or you just don't think that us Evangelical Christians should let our faith guide our politics and be respected at the same time?
When did you become so close minded about this stuff? Did all your conservative Christian friends move out of state?
Okay guys lets breath. Inhale 2 .. Exhale 3... Do it with me again. Inhale 2.. Exhale 3... Now close your eyes and imagine the place you feel most comfortable and relaxed. Don't forget to keep breathing. There now don't we all feel better!
I think it's really interesting to see what "Evangelical Christians" see as their mandate to push on others.
For example, they believe in the 6th commandment and a "culture of life", until the kid comes out of the womb, needs help because it's born in poverty, becomes draft age, or commits a capital crime.
And apparently, you all embrace Leviticus 18:22, "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman", but how many of you will defend Ephesians 6:5, "Servants, be obedient unto them that according to the flesh are your masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ"?
I think a lot of Evangelicals are people who need answers spelled out for them as a form of comfort. I think we need to be fine with and bask in the great unknowing - the idea that we do not know everything, but we have the capacity to be open to everything.
Please, my Evangelical brothers and sisters - understand that the love of Jesus is much more open, inviting, and inclusionary than you ever thought possible.
I dont think Dobson was being hateful when he expressed his views that he did not consider homosexuality to be a moral lifestyle. If that alone classifies someone as being hateful and discriminatory then you must add to your list Moses, The Apostle Paul, and others who have spoke against what they considered to be sexual immorality including Jesus who did not ever mention homosexuality specifically but spoke out against sexual immorality a number of times (each time it was a to a jewish audience who would have understood homosexuality to be a part of sexual immorality along with adultery, fornication, etc..). Thus I do not think it is an issue of evangelicals not allowing God to be Big and inclusory but for others not wanting to accept God's commands and so they want to paint onto Him their own beliefs; creating a diety who tells them what they want to hear.
That being said Dobson could very well be full of crap with his accusations, but someone is not made a hate monger just because he/she thinks homosexuality is immoral.
why do I think Ryan is being suprisingly hateful and intolerant towards actual evangelicals? How about statements like: "What an Asshole."
Why is Dobson an "Asshole?" Is it because he expresses evangelical values? Ryan hasn't said. He's only made the conclusion: Dr. Dobson (and by implication those who agree)are "Asshole[s]". So I can only guess either that Ryan now takes issue with Christian beliefs or that Dr. Dobson beat Ryan up when he was in Germany.
Also, before Yoyo John makes pretty clearly ignorant statements about pro-lifers, he should spend a day at the pro-life orphanages and fostor homes around the country. We got entire hospitals too. Honestly, I have no idea where you would get such an idea that pro-lifers don't do anything for born children. Don't confuse Congress for the pro-life movement. We are separate.
I also don't get Yoyo John's theology, thinking that traditional Evangelical/Protestants are dumb for not instituting slavery in a free society. (?!) Want a quick Bible study? - Homosexuality is spoken of in the New Testament too, not just in Leviticus. Read Romans. - The Bible's take on slavery in the Roman Empire (Abridged, accdg to Daniel): Slaves, Masters, whatever. Treat each other like Christian brothers and sisters because you all answer to me (God) and I (God) don't distinguish. (Suprisingly, Yoyo John, there are more passages dealing with slavery in the Bible that shed light on the principles behind the precept. Three come to mind right now.)
A lot of the time, you can't read individual Bible Verses without reading the whole of the Bible. There's more depth to the Scriptures than just single sentences.
Of course, if you don't agree, than it must be because I'm an "Asshole."
"You don't sound very tolerant of Dobson or conservative thoughts and values. Therefore, you too oppose tolerance, and nothing you have said refutes this point."I don't buy it. Bland ad hominem does not an argument make. The author of this post didn't really put forth a sweeping argument against Dobson, but it at least didn't fall prey to a stack of text-book logical errors.
Dobson is spouting the exact same line the Nazi leaders used to oppose the Jews (and the Nazis were pretty unfriendly toward gay people also, but that tends to get brushed over). They, too, used the "The [fill_in_the_blank] are a minority who, through their financial [or whatever] strength oppress the poor Christian masses!"
Well, not exactly. Pretty bloody close, though.
And gee... i wonder why GLBT (and people of Jewish heritage) have greater financial stability than the average population? Perhaps, rather than being an indication these groups are not oppressed or whatever else, they are wealthy in spite of society's dissaproval.
But of course: Dobson doesn't deal with that. Or any of the other objections to his proposition. It's just another justification for prejudice.
And also: Dobson's position is not simply "Christian morality". Same sex relationships count under "sexual immorality" if and only if same sex relations are a moral sin. The "sexual immorality" line is simply a smoke screen. I'm not going to get into the argments there, but suffice it to say i could drag in a theologian who would flay your collective hides if you really, really want to get into that argument.
Finally: whether or not Christianity or Judaism approve or dissaprove of same sex relationships: there's this thing called "the first amendment" (you know, the one that comes right before the second amendment?) and the concept of separation of powers that get in the way.
FYI Winter. To doubt that in Orthdox Christianity homosexual behavior is not considered sin is complete ignorance of what orthodox christianity teaches. Just because your theologian friend disagrees with Orthodox Christianity, it doesn't change the fact that Orthodox Christianity, rightly or wrongly, believes that homosexual behavior is a sin. (Does that mean that homosexuals should be ostracized? by no means.)
Also, the 1st Amendment free excercise and establishment issues don't come into play unless government is either quelching or "establishing" religion. Thusly, I have no foggy idea where your First Amendment argument is coming into play on the discussion of the topic "Why does Ryan hate Dr. Dobson so" (Unless of course Ryan has become the State, which couldn't happen because he has never beaten me in any PS2 football competition).
Arguing that a lobby is gaining influence because of money isn't quite nearly as Nazi as you might think. Also, you should reread my comment that you quoted. That statement wasn't an argument of ryan's intolerance but instead an example of faulty argument to show what Ryan was doing incorretly. Try reading for content instead of affirmation next time.
One more thing: Tolerance certainly can be a virtue in and of itself--provided it doesn't get taken to such extremes where tolerance of one thing causes harm to real people.
Same thing with any other virtue. Not killing people is usually seen as a virtue, but not alawys. Sometimes (for instance: defense of yourself or direct defense of innocent people) requires lethal force. In those situations precisely the opposite is true--yet this does not mean we as a society say things like "not killing people is not a virtue", but rather we say "not murdering people is a virtue". (And define "murder" as essentially "bad killing"...)
This is one place in which conservatives seem to get confused: challenging or opposing bigotry and preaching intolerance and outright hate are two entirely separate things. For all the disdain conservatives heap upon moral relativism they're sure happy to drag it out when trying to defend themselves from accusations of intolerance or bigotry or what have you.
The difference between "James Dobson is an asshole" and trying to convince people that Christians (not just the majority but the supermajority) are oppressed and GLBT people are not without so much as pretending to argue the actual examples of oppression is certainly vast.
(And as far as AIDS money goes: the average infection rate over the entire continent of Africa is estimated to be nearly 10%. And that's 10% of everyone, not 10% of gay men. AIDS has overtaken malaria and malnutrition in terms of overall deaths. So maybe in the USA heart attacks are more lethal than AIDS--but not everywhere. Not by a long shot.)
"FYI Winter. To doubt that in Orthdox Christianity homosexual behavior is not considered sin is complete ignorance of what orthodox christianity teaches."I did not claim otherwise and i would appreciate--no, insist--that you not put words into my mouth.
A lot of people once believed the earth was flat and that atoms were indivisible. Just that people believed it does not make it any more right or wrong.
"(Does that mean that homosexuals should be ostracized? by no means.)"Says you. What, then, if "orthodox Christianity" decides otherwise?
"...Thusly, I have no foggy idea where your First Amendment argument is coming into play..."Marriage--legal marriage--as well as every other law is government-established. To include just as one example (the obvious one) a theological point of a single religion (or a handful, depending on how you count) in the marriage laws of the USA makes discussions of the first amendment very significant indeed.
My point being, if it was unclear, that regardless of what Dobson's personal religious belief is on the matter he is not me and he is not anyone else.
"Arguing that a lobby is gaining influence because of money isn't quite nearly as Nazi as you might think..."The economic argument was central to the overall anti-semitic crusade of the Nazis--second only to vague appeals to emotion, intimations that the Jews were responsible for World War 1 and Germany's (then) present state of disaster, and possibly the "Jews killed Jesus" line. The continuous references to "The Jewish Plutocracy" or "The Jewish Press" alone ought to be enough, but for further examples:
"Any crook can sell junk. Jewish crooks have driven thousands of German businessmen to bankruptcy with the glittering trash in their department store palaces. When someone does get good products more cheaply from the Jews than from Germans, it is only because the united Jewish firms force down prices from the manufacturers, which means reducing workers' wages. He who has bought good products cheaply from the Jew should never forget that the curse of a German worker and the tears of his hungry children come with them!"(A response to the an argument in favor of buying goods from Jews in defiance of Nazi Germany's social norms "The Jews have the most inexpensive goods for sale.")
"The Jew leads the other world [the rest of Europe and the USA]."(A random reference made by Hitler)
"We know that the Jew will lose, that he and his devilish, life-denying and destructive doctrines will be destroyed (vernichtet), Look around and see how the emigrants are increasing; even London has noticed. In Rome, they found the smartest Jesuit they had. A brutal butcher sits in Moscow. They form the front, and the Jew is behind them all."(Another reference from the same speech)
"This war was started by the Jews, and is a Jewish war in its deepest roots. It will be the same as the Jewish reaction to the National Socialist uprising in 1923. The Jews believed then that their hirelings could exterminate the National Socialist movement with blatant force, murder, and prisons. They achieved the opposite."(From another speech by Hitler, this time blaming the Jews for the actions of the Nazis)
Anyway, if you listened to the Nazis the Jews were doing pretty darn well.
From Dobson:
"Gays also have a much higher percentage of college degrees than the straight population.216 And when it comes to political clout, how can they claim to be shortchanged? Dozens of objectives of the gay and lesbian community are being achieved today... You have Hollywood, the press, the media, the universities, the publishers, the professionals (in the American Bar Association, American Medical Association, etc.), and the judiciary enforcing your "politically correct" agenda."Just for the hell of it: even more propaganda that claims it is the Jews, and not the Nazis, who are the haters.
Dare I jump into the middle of this verbal fray? Regardless of what one thinks about Dobson's views or homosexuality in general I am not convinced that Dobson opposes 'tolerance' of those who believe differently. It appears he has a strong moral conviction that a 'gay lifestyle' is wrong and therefore refuses to accept homosexuality, but he never advocated violence or verbal harassment towards the gay community or a denial of their human rights. For Instance:
ReplyDelete"The stated purpose, as we have seen, is to teach children to respect each other and to accept those who are different. We are entirely supportive of that message." James Dobson
"Every individual is entitled to respect and human dignity, including those with whom we disagree strongly. The problem is not with acceptance or kindness, certainly." James Dobson
http://www.family.org/docstudy/newsletters/a0035339.cfm
His dissaproval wasnt with the video itself which he calls 'innocent' but with the curriculum that was supposedly sent along with it. Dobson claims to have proof of such and thus we have the We Are Family Co. saying one thing and him saying another. I cannot say for sure that 'We Are Family' is being dishonest but I also dont think that Dobson arbitraly made this fiasco up.
It would be odd to see how some would react if The Christian Coalition and The 700 Club put together a curriculum that teaches things about homosexuality and used 'Cookie Monster' and 'Big Bird' to market it to children. It is not clear that the 'We are Family' curriculum actually taught things regarding homosexuality but if it does I would agree that corporations have no business marketing their personal beliefs to school children regarding topics as sensitive as sexuality without parental consent.
"......if The Christian Coalition and The 700 Club put together a curriculum that teaches things about homosexuality and used 'Cookie Monster' and 'Big Bird' to market it to children."
ReplyDeleteThat is a bit of a stretch. A friend calls them "Mandarins of Morality". Very apt. It seems that their prurient minds are always looking for dirt.
Mr. Dobson is a hate monger. The fact that he feels the need to explicitly say that he is not only points this out.
ReplyDelete"Every individual is entitled to respect and human dignity, including those with whom we disagree strongly. The problem is not with acceptance or kindness, certainly."
If that we the case it would go without saying. Mr. Dobson however is talking out of both sides of his mouth.
"That raises the question: Have homosexuals faced this kind of uphill battle? Perhaps in the past, but there is no evidence of which I'm aware that they are disadvantaged now. The average homosexual earns $55,000 per year, compared with $32,000 for heterosexuals.215
Gays also have a much higher percentage of college degrees than the straight population.216 And when it comes to political clout, how can they claim to be shortchanged? Dozens of objectives of the gay and lesbian community are being achieved today.
Look at the issue of funding for AIDS research and treatment. I had a heart attack several years ago, and I am very concerned about support for research on coronary artery disease. After all, heart attacks and strokes kill more people than AIDS, cancer, TB, and several other diseases combined. But as you may know, the federal government spent 39 times as much on AIDS last year as it did on heart disease.217 Why? Because of the clout of homosexuals who turned their powerful guns on Congress and the White House.
My point is not to decry money being spent on the horrible AIDS epidemic. I'm simply making the point that the homosexual community is hardly an oppressed, powerless minority seeking protection under the law. You have Hollywood, the press, the media, the universities, the publishers, the professionals (in the American Bar Association, American Medical Association, etc.), and the judiciary enforcing your "politically correct" agenda.
Conservative Christians, by contrast, are stranded pretty much on their own. Given this undergirding, I hope you can see that our opposition to the gay and lesbian tidal wave is not an expression of hate but one of social justice and common sense."
I do believe he protesteth too much.
What nonsense.
-The Oklahoma Hippy
A bit far fetched? The disco singer of 'We Are Family' is heading up a not for profit corporation that is the center of a national controversy for the supposed curriculum of their efforts to make school children more 'tolerant'. And as far as the quote is concerned the speaker should have read this last issue of time.
ReplyDeleteApparantly, you just don't like Evangelical Christians who actually act on their faith. You made no substantive criticism against Dobson's Christian beliefs except that he's a "hate-monger". You've abandoned Christian values now? Or you just don't think that us Evangelical Christians should let our faith guide our politics and be respected at the same time?
ReplyDeleteWhen did you become so close minded about this stuff? Did all your conservative Christian friends move out of state?
LOL, we're all getting in arguments and we live 2000 miles apart.
ReplyDelete"Or you just don't think that us Evangelical Christians should let our faith guide our politics and be respected at the same time?"
ReplyDeleteThere's a typo. It should say "shouldn't let our faith...."
:'(
Okay guys lets breath. Inhale 2 .. Exhale 3... Do it with me again. Inhale 2.. Exhale 3... Now close your eyes and imagine the place you feel most comfortable and relaxed. Don't forget to keep breathing. There now don't we all feel better!
ReplyDeleteI think it's really interesting to see what "Evangelical Christians" see as their mandate to push on others.
ReplyDeleteFor example, they believe in the 6th commandment and a "culture of life", until the kid comes out of the womb, needs help because it's born in poverty, becomes draft age, or commits a capital crime.
And apparently, you all embrace Leviticus 18:22, "And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman", but how many of you will defend Ephesians 6:5, "Servants, be obedient unto them that according to the flesh are your masters, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ"?
I think a lot of Evangelicals are people who need answers spelled out for them as a form of comfort. I think we need to be fine with and bask in the great unknowing - the idea that we do not know everything, but we have the capacity to be open to everything.
Please, my Evangelical brothers and sisters - understand that the love of Jesus is much more open, inviting, and inclusionary than you ever thought possible.
Please let God be as big as he is.
I dont think Dobson was being hateful when he expressed his views that he did not consider homosexuality to be a moral lifestyle. If that alone classifies someone as being hateful and discriminatory then you must add to your list Moses, The Apostle Paul, and others who have spoke against what they considered to be sexual immorality including Jesus who did not ever mention homosexuality specifically but spoke out against sexual immorality a number of times (each time it was a to a jewish audience who would have understood homosexuality to be a part of sexual immorality along with adultery, fornication, etc..). Thus I do not think it is an issue of evangelicals not allowing God to be Big and inclusory but for others not wanting to accept God's commands and so they want to paint onto Him their own beliefs; creating a diety who tells them what they want to hear.
ReplyDeleteThat being said Dobson could very well be full of crap with his accusations, but someone is not made a hate monger just because he/she thinks homosexuality is immoral.
Yoyo John thinks I need a better argument.
ReplyDeletewhy do I think Ryan is being suprisingly hateful and intolerant towards actual evangelicals? How about statements like:
"What an Asshole."
Why is Dobson an "Asshole?" Is it because he expresses evangelical values? Ryan hasn't said. He's only made the conclusion: Dr. Dobson (and by implication those who agree)are "Asshole[s]". So I can only guess either that Ryan now takes issue with Christian beliefs or that Dr. Dobson beat Ryan up when he was in Germany.
Also, before Yoyo John makes pretty clearly ignorant statements about pro-lifers, he should spend a day at the pro-life orphanages and fostor homes around the country. We got entire hospitals too. Honestly, I have no idea where you would get such an idea that pro-lifers don't do anything for born children. Don't confuse Congress for the pro-life movement. We are separate.
I also don't get Yoyo John's theology, thinking that traditional Evangelical/Protestants are dumb for not instituting slavery in a free society. (?!) Want a quick Bible study?
- Homosexuality is spoken of in the New Testament too, not just in Leviticus. Read Romans.
- The Bible's take on slavery in the Roman Empire (Abridged, accdg to Daniel): Slaves, Masters, whatever. Treat each other like Christian brothers and sisters because you all answer to me (God) and I (God) don't distinguish. (Suprisingly, Yoyo John, there are more passages dealing with slavery in the Bible that shed light on the principles behind the precept. Three come to mind right now.)
A lot of the time, you can't read individual Bible Verses without reading the whole of the Bible. There's more depth to the Scriptures than just single sentences.
Of course, if you don't agree, than it must be because I'm an "Asshole."
You know what you've convinced me, I renounce my atheistic beliefs.
ReplyDeleteWhoa hey I dont!
ReplyDeleteNo, you've convince me, I am now going to join the Unitarian movement.
ReplyDeleteWow.
ReplyDelete"You don't sound very tolerant of Dobson or conservative thoughts and values. Therefore, you too oppose tolerance, and nothing you have said refutes this point."I don't buy it. Bland ad hominem does not an argument make. The author of this post didn't really put forth a sweeping argument against Dobson, but it at least didn't fall prey to a stack of text-book logical errors.
Dobson is spouting the exact same line the Nazi leaders used to oppose the Jews (and the Nazis were pretty unfriendly toward gay people also, but that tends to get brushed over). They, too, used the "The [fill_in_the_blank] are a minority who, through their financial [or whatever] strength oppress the poor Christian masses!"
Well, not exactly. Pretty bloody close, though.
And gee... i wonder why GLBT (and people of Jewish heritage) have greater financial stability than the average population? Perhaps, rather than being an indication these groups are not oppressed or whatever else, they are wealthy in spite of society's dissaproval.
But of course: Dobson doesn't deal with that. Or any of the other objections to his proposition. It's just another justification for prejudice.
And also: Dobson's position is not simply "Christian morality". Same sex relationships count under "sexual immorality" if and only if same sex relations are a moral sin. The "sexual immorality" line is simply a smoke screen. I'm not going to get into the argments there, but suffice it to say i could drag in a theologian who would flay your collective hides if you really, really want to get into that argument.
Finally: whether or not Christianity or Judaism approve or dissaprove of same sex relationships: there's this thing called "the first amendment" (you know, the one that comes right before the second amendment?) and the concept of separation of powers that get in the way.
FYI Winter. To doubt that in Orthdox Christianity homosexual behavior is not considered sin is complete ignorance of what orthodox christianity teaches. Just because your theologian friend disagrees with Orthodox Christianity, it doesn't change the fact that Orthodox Christianity, rightly or wrongly, believes that homosexual behavior is a sin. (Does that mean that homosexuals should be ostracized? by no means.)
ReplyDeleteAlso, the 1st Amendment free excercise and establishment issues don't come into play unless government is either quelching or "establishing" religion. Thusly, I have no foggy idea where your First Amendment argument is coming into play on the discussion of the topic "Why does Ryan hate Dr. Dobson so" (Unless of course Ryan has become the State, which couldn't happen because he has never beaten me in any PS2 football competition).
Arguing that a lobby is gaining influence because of money isn't quite nearly as Nazi as you might think. Also, you should reread my comment that you quoted. That statement wasn't an argument of ryan's intolerance but instead an example of faulty argument to show what Ryan was doing incorretly. Try reading for content instead of affirmation next time.
One more thing: Tolerance certainly can be a virtue in and of itself--provided it doesn't get taken to such extremes where tolerance of one thing causes harm to real people.
ReplyDeleteSame thing with any other virtue. Not killing people is usually seen as a virtue, but not alawys. Sometimes (for instance: defense of yourself or direct defense of innocent people) requires lethal force. In those situations precisely the opposite is true--yet this does not mean we as a society say things like "not killing people is not a virtue", but rather we say "not murdering people is a virtue". (And define "murder" as essentially "bad killing"...)
This is one place in which conservatives seem to get confused: challenging or opposing bigotry and preaching intolerance and outright hate are two entirely separate things. For all the disdain conservatives heap upon moral relativism they're sure happy to drag it out when trying to defend themselves from accusations of intolerance or bigotry or what have you.
The difference between "James Dobson is an asshole" and trying to convince people that Christians (not just the majority but the supermajority) are oppressed and GLBT people are not without so much as pretending to argue the actual examples of oppression is certainly vast.
(And as far as AIDS money goes: the average infection rate over the entire continent of Africa is estimated to be nearly 10%. And that's 10% of everyone, not 10% of gay men. AIDS has overtaken malaria and malnutrition in terms of overall deaths. So maybe in the USA heart attacks are more lethal than AIDS--but not everywhere. Not by a long shot.)
"FYI Winter. To doubt that in Orthdox Christianity homosexual behavior is not considered sin is complete ignorance of what orthodox christianity teaches."I did not claim otherwise and i would appreciate--no, insist--that you not put words into my mouth.
ReplyDeleteA lot of people once believed the earth was flat and that atoms were indivisible. Just that people believed it does not make it any more right or wrong.
"(Does that mean that homosexuals should be ostracized? by no means.)"Says you. What, then, if "orthodox Christianity" decides otherwise?
"...Thusly, I have no foggy idea where your First Amendment argument is coming into play..."Marriage--legal marriage--as well as every other law is government-established. To include just as one example (the obvious one) a theological point of a single religion (or a handful, depending on how you count) in the marriage laws of the USA makes discussions of the first amendment very significant indeed.
My point being, if it was unclear, that regardless of what Dobson's personal religious belief is on the matter he is not me and he is not anyone else.
"Arguing that a lobby is gaining influence because of money isn't quite nearly as Nazi as you might think..."The economic argument was central to the overall anti-semitic crusade of the Nazis--second only to vague appeals to emotion, intimations that the Jews were responsible for World War 1 and Germany's (then) present state of disaster, and possibly the "Jews killed Jesus" line. The continuous references to "The Jewish Plutocracy" or "The Jewish Press" alone ought to be enough, but for further examples:
"Any crook can sell junk. Jewish crooks have driven thousands of German businessmen to bankruptcy with the glittering trash in their department store palaces. When someone does get good products more cheaply from the Jews than from Germans, it is only because the united Jewish firms force down prices from the manufacturers, which means reducing workers' wages. He who has bought good products cheaply from the Jew should never forget that the curse of a German worker and the tears of his hungry children come with them!"(A response to the an argument in favor of buying goods from Jews in defiance of Nazi Germany's social norms "The Jews have the most inexpensive goods for sale.")
"The Jew leads the other world [the rest of Europe and the USA]."(A random reference made by Hitler)
"We know that the Jew will lose, that he and his devilish, life-denying and destructive doctrines will be destroyed (vernichtet), Look around and see how the emigrants are increasing; even London has noticed. In Rome, they found the smartest Jesuit they had. A brutal butcher sits in Moscow. They form the front, and the Jew is behind them all."(Another reference from the same speech)
"This war was started by the Jews, and is a Jewish war in its deepest roots. It will be the same as the Jewish reaction to the National Socialist uprising in 1923. The Jews believed then that their hirelings could exterminate the National Socialist movement with blatant force, murder, and prisons. They achieved the opposite."(From another speech by Hitler, this time blaming the Jews for the actions of the Nazis)
Or here, some propaganda for children.
Similar propaganda.Yet another, similar piece of propaganda about how "good Germans" ought not trust Jewish lawyers."Money is the God of the Jews."Some allegory.Should i go on?
Anyway, if you listened to the Nazis the Jews were doing pretty darn well.
From Dobson:
"Gays also have a much higher percentage of college degrees than the straight population.216 And when it comes to political clout, how can they claim to be shortchanged? Dozens of objectives of the gay and lesbian community are being achieved today... You have Hollywood, the press, the media, the universities, the publishers, the professionals (in the American Bar Association, American Medical Association, etc.), and the judiciary enforcing your "politically correct" agenda."Just for the hell of it: even more propaganda that claims it is the Jews, and not the Nazis, who are the haters.
One more thing to throw in:
ReplyDeleteAIDS and Africa.
I don't think eneryone was breathing with me last time!
ReplyDelete